Scratching the Surface

Interviews With Authentic Leaders

Number 1: Corporate Philosopher at Large - Richard Hames in interview with Annette Cahill

AC. Hello Richard. Author, corporate philosopher, public speaker, intellectual, strategic adviser, futurist, facilitator, physician, composer, entrepreneur, businessman.You are a very difficult person to pin down in terms of what you do. You seem to be very much a 'renaissance' figure - able to talk deeply and provocatively about almost anything under the sun. Your interests and expertise span so many different fields. Within which of these many guises lurks the real Richard Hames?

RH. Goodness me. All of them I guess. At least, well, yes, all of them. We wear masks these days like a second skin don't we? But I don't want to give the impression of being a know-it-all. I would certainly never claim to be an expert in any of these fields. But I am innately curious. I could never decide what I wanted to be you see. Still can't. I love learning and I'm always trying to reinvent myself. So, yes, I guess I am comfortable with all of these things. But what I do extends way beyond the boundaries we typically place around knowledge. You can probably trace this larrikin disposition back to my early years in the English public school system where I deliberately fought against the notion of being labelled because of what I did. I've always tried to connect bits of knowledge that are otherwise put into separate boxes for no coherent reason. So much of life, after all, is irrational and unknowable. Nowadays, of course, scientists are discovering that the most mystifying aspects of being a living, sentient, human being are precisely in those things we cannot label. At school I opted to study music and science, which was very radical at the time. I am passionate about resynthesising human knowledge rather than working within any single arbitrary compartment. I relish finding connections between things where none appear to exist, and pondering the consequences of the new patterns that emerge as a result. I do believe new ways of seeing and understanding our world can arise from such reflective practice. Does that make sense?

AC. Most people understand what consultants do but may be unfamiliar with the term Corporate Philosopher. What does a corporate philosopher do?

RH. The true value of philosophy, of any kind, is in the deeper questions it poses about life and existence. A corporate philosopher asks questions no one else appears to be asking and legitimises the asking of questions nobody has been prepared to ask, in the fields of business, government and society. Personally I do this by writing, speaking and advising. But the crux of my work is the generation of profound questions that unlock new thinking and new meaning. This can make people jittery, of course, because such questions are uncomfortable. They challenge conventions and deeply ingrained belief systems. Ultimately though, my goal is to help people create better futures by asking deeper questions, by helping them perceive things differently, and by clarifying the context within decisions are made. Because of this my questions often relate to how things could work better or how they 'should be' compared with what they currently are.

AC. What is your personal philosophy? What are the things you pay attention to and that give meaning to your own life?

RH. Well, first and foremost I am a practicing Buddhist. That makes me very mindful of the inherent sacredness of all living things. It also enables me to connect past, present and future in an expanded consciousness of my own place, and that of others, in the universe. Inevitably this impinges upon my view of the big issues - like life and death for example. As for the things I most pay attention to, these tend to be beyond my immediate control and very much future focused. I embrace the notion of emergence and the uncertainty that comes from that. I believe less in individual genius than in collective wisdom - which is why I espouse the need for collaborative, purposeful action when it comes to change of any magnitude. I invariably work in conjunction with others so that new knowledge is liberated within the system and beyond its immediate boundaries. In that respect my work is extremely innovative, even revolutionary, as it turns upside-down most of the orthodoxies existing in contemporary society, many of which are still predicated on rules and assumptions going back to the 19th century, or even earlier. I tend to be viewed as a heretic by the establishment because of that.

AC. If you spend your time asking questions, what answers do you seek?

RH. As a knowledge designer I'm invariably examining whole systems for signals and patterns that may reveal alternative ways of shaping complex issues for the betterment of society. Because I work with whole systems, appreciating the context is vital. My curiosity about the context is insatiable as any of my clients will readily attest. Nothing must be overlooked - values, events, artefacts, culture, language, personalities, behaviours, dynamics, trends - no matter how small or (seemingly) trivial. These are all critical features defining the current state of the system and are important for that reason.

AC. That must amount to an awful lot of data. Do you work with armies of consultants?

RH. Goodness no. You see I don't gather data so much as narratives, stories and anecdotes that help clarify or that shed new light on the emergent state of the system and the assumptions underpinning our actions. It is foolish to believe that gathering more and more data will somehow give you the magic bullet and yet many of us have been brought up to believe that is the case, especially in corporations where numbers reign supreme. Actually human beings instinctively make the best choices on very little data. Malcolm Gladwell's cases in 'Blink' leave no doubt as to the power of first impressions. More data can often be a negative in fact. It is more the assumptions underpinning our thinking and acting that are interesting - and powerful. If you want to change something you need to change people's assumptions first of all. Everything flows from that.

AC. What do you do with the evidence you collect?

RH. Create new intelligence, perspectives and insights that can be used to map the system in its current state. This is compared with the desired situation. Then we try to compose elegant and adaptive strategies that will get us where we want to go.

AC. You mean plans?

RH. No. Not in the conventional sense at least. I mean frameworks, methods and designs that lead to the more effective execution of ideas. I like to create plans on the run and don't really believe in the value of long-winded plans if they can be avoided. I try to create strategies that are innovative, easy to understand and to implement, that are viable, and that provide generative benefits to the people with whom I am working. An example of this would be Strategic Conversation, a methodology I designed with Marvin Oka to liberate creativity and imagination in large enterprises. All of that is a long-winded way of answering your previous question. I don't seek particular (or predetermined) answers; although, like everyone else, my work is embedded within a set of assumptions about how the world works. So, working with complexity, I believe in the value of collective wisdom over individual genius and in liberating people rather than dictating to them as an expert who knows best, for example. I am also not very interested in problem solving as such, but in helping people develop a profound consciousness (of the system they inhabit) so that their own problem solving becomes more sophisticated and, as a consequence, more sustainable. Naturally, much depends on the context as well as the instincts and needs of those with whom I am working.

AC. What are your personal values?

RH. I have always been driven by a thirst for learning. I am a natural optimist and always see new possibilities in any situation. I hope that I am generous of spirit and I certainly try to be mindful of other people's feelings and needs. I am always looking for new ways to engage with people; to help them transform themselves and, in so doing, to improve their own lives. I also rigorously share my ideas so that I'm forced to remain a creator, rather than just a user, of new knowledge. I cannot abide the thought of repeating myself or causing damage to others. Those are the things that I most value.

AC. In terms of your work as an adviser to CEOs and governments around the world, how would you describe your unique value proposition?

RH. You must remember that I am not a management consultant. You cannot evaluate my work using criteria that are grounded in that world. As a rule, consultants tend to know what the problem is they are being asked to work on. I don't have that luxury. I have to find out what the problem is. Indeed, that is a critical part of my engagement. Value proposition? I guess you could say I use whatever expertise I have to help (re)design communities that achieve their goals while remaining authentic, creative and healthy. I don't focus on creating visions or imposing top-down change (which can cause performance stress and other anxieties) but on leveraging and facilitating emergence across the whole of an enterprise, community, or nation. At its most effective, my work enables self-organisation to occur and uncommonsense to be liberated.

AC. What is your real value to governments and CEOs in corporate environments? I know a number of corporations make multi-million dollar investment decisions based on your advice. Yet you openly acknowledge the whole notion of uncertainty. Isn't that an enormous risk for your clients?

RH. Yes it is. But there is always ambiguity. We live in an age of uncertainty. By providing fresh insights, alternative perspectives, and adaptive design methods to orthodox strategies, my work actually diminishes the potential risk. The real value to my clients is in the rigorous, occasionally highly unconventional, qualitative research my team undertakes and in the creation of intelligence that they would otherwise ignore or simply not see.

AC. So it is not just the questions that are important, but also the entire approach?

RH. Absolutely. Fristly we listen, gathering intelligence. Then we think, applying deep design principles. Then we pose uncommon questions in the search for uncommon strategies. Actually Charles Hampden Turner put it rather elegantly when he described my work as 'the art of mapping interfaces between society, organisations and governance to improve situations'. Part of that research involves mapping systemic dynamics in order to understand the drivers of change. This allows me to identify emerging issues that will be on my clients' radar screens in the future, advise them on how these are most likely to impact them and their business, and design methodologies and systems for helping them deal with these consequences more effectively.

AC. Do you ever work alone?

RH. It has been known. But the work I do is a collaborative art. So I far prefer to work with a small team of specialists who are familiar with my ideas and share the same beliefs. Sometimes they remain very much in the background. But I am always drawing on the expertise of others in some form.

AC. Over the years you have generated enormous loyalty among your blue chip clients. I have spoken with perhaps a dozen or so and they are all incredibly enthusiastic about their relationship with you. Why do corporations want to work with you? What magic do you bring?

RH. It's more hard work and imagination than magic you know. If only there was a magic wand… But sadly no. I think there are four major reasons for their enthusiasm. Firstly we get results that go way beyond their initial anticipations. Doubts about the value of engaging a corporate philosopher tend to dissipate rapidly when the excitement of new possibilities takes over, enduring obstacles are overcome with ease, and difficult goals are achieved with little effort. Secondly we are incredibly candid yet highly collaborative. Our clients relish this kind of exchange; it runs counter to much conventional conduct where myths and misinformation abound and untruths are routinely told. Thirdly we work at a whole-of-system level in order that every part of the business benefits from our thinking. And finally we share everything we do with our clients so that they don't become dependent upon us.

AC. I am told that you also go to some companies and suggest to their CEOs that you work with them. That is quite unusual is it not?

RH. I'm not sure. I suspect the large consulting firms employ such tactics. We probably do it for different reasons though. I mentioned before that I don't like repeating myself. Years ago I gave away my tenure in an academic institution on the very day I realised I was about to repeat a lecture I had previously given. I was horrified. Resigned that afternoon. I am easily bored you see. So I need challenging, complex, global assignments that others are not prepared to touch or who are ill-equipped to undertake such work. When we find these we will often approach the leaders with offers of help. Yes, that is true.

AC. When you work in corporations how soon should your clients begin to see the results you are after?

RH. They begin to see results almost immediately because my approach is highly collaborative and systemic. No part of the business is left untouched by our inputs and irrespective of our intervention, overall performance and capability will improve. We guarantee that.

AC. With whom do you prefer to work?

RH. In order to bring a depth and breadth to our work we do not specialise in any one sector of the economy or geographical region. On the contrary, we are delighted to work with a wide range of clients and other partners in diverse industries and across all five continents. Obviously we prefer to invest our time and energy where they are most likely to result in real progress. Experience suggests we are most likely to add value and leverage sustainable change when there is an early, clear and mutual understanding of our values.

AC. Although you try not to allow clients to become too dependent upon you, I gather some of your clients have been with you for a considerable while?

RH. Yes. We have been continuously engaged by some clients for more than a decade now. That is quite a record, given the nature of our work. They are now friends, of course, and the relationship is mutually beneficial as we apply generative learning and value innovation across the business.

AC. You have written three books. The Five Literacies is your latest. What next for Richard Hames?

RH. Oh, more books of course. I currently have a couple in various stages of development for John Wiley & Sons. More public speaking which, as a born performer, I find irresistible. I am also keen to commit more of my time to undertake projects of an entrepreneurial nature within developing communities. We have a large project going in Isaan in northeastern Thailand, for instance. This is an ambitious multi-million dollar project that requires more of my energy than I can possibly devote to it at the present time. We are also setting up an Asian Foresight Institute in Thailand and that is taking a lot of energy. So there is much to do still.

AC. Richard, many thanks.

RH. Thanks Annette.